[optacon-l] Re: Optacon List Archives
- From: Mallard <mallard@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 22:50:45 +0100
Ciao Antonio,
Actually no, I'd never thought about it, but I was just considering it
as I read the previous messages and replied to them.
I've demonstrated it a lot though, to sighted people, in many different
situations.
I'm a staunch optacon supporter and user, and promoter too, whenever I can.
Actually, I think quite a few people on some Italian mailing lists are
beginning to become curious about the Optacon, because i keep mentioning
it...
Lucrezia, who's just joined, is one of them, I think.
I am not on many lists; only a couple of them, mostly technical, but I
keep "teasing" people and making their mouths water, in spite of all the
scanners, audiobook readers, mp3 players, and so on and so forth...
I use all sorts of technologies, from braille display, to synth
(rarely), to Android smartphone, to anything that can make my life
easier, but nothing is like the Optacon!
Ciao,
Ollie
Il 04/11/2012 22.42, Antonio Quatraro ha scritto:
> that is really amazing!
> have you ever thoutht about making a short video, to help people to show
> rather to talk about optacon?
> Antonio
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mallard" <mallard@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 10:09 PM
> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon List Archives
>
>
>> I still use my Optacon to read books. I even bought an ebook reader,
>> which I read with my Optacon.
>> That's a sort of hybrid technology, as I use digital books, but I
>> don'tread them on a pc, but on an ebook reader, with the Optacon.
>> It's a great thing, because I can carry a whole library with me, and yet
>> have the same advantages one would have with printed books.
>>
>> I use a braille display on the pc, almost always without voice.
>>
>> I still read music, maps, food cans, packages, you name it... I don't
>> read the phone book any longer, forthe very reasons David mentioned in
>> his most interesting (and upsetting!) message, but I still look up
>> dictionaries, because I find it difficult to use online or cd-rom
>> versions. They don't ever seem o have all I need, and when you have
>> several languages on the same page, at times with non-Latin alphabets,
>> it's tougher with a cd-rom.
>> Ciao,
>> Ollie
>>
>>
>>
>> Il 04/11/2012 21.42, Natalie ha scritto:
>>> I took out a personal loan to get my first Optacon and it was the best
>>> decision I ever made. Don't know what I'd do without it now in my daily
>>> life although I no longer read long books with it. Unfortunately a
>>> majority
>>> of blind individuals seem to prefer to be read to with voice applications
>>> and even find braille a drag. It's a trend that has gained a lot of
>>> momentum with the computer and along with it comes terrible spelling.
>>> The
>>> Optacon would have quite a fight to come back or improve but I still
>>> think
>>> we might find others somewhere in dresser drawers or closets if we
>>> advertised, say, at conventions. Unfortunately I don't go to them but
>>> it's
>>> just an idea.
>>>
>>> Natalie
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "H & C Arnold" <4carolyna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 3:15 PM
>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon List Archives
>>>
>>>
>>>> What would Telesensory have to gain by clinging to their patent?
>>>>
>>>> We got a mortgage on a house in order to have the money for my first
>>>> Optacon. For the second one, I applied for a no-interest loan at the
>>>> local
>>>> agency for the blind where I lived and paid it off in a year.
>>>>
>>>> DOG - Depend on God,
>>>>
>>>> Carolyn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "David" <elephant@xxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 2:17 PM
>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon List Archives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, I agree, it is no nice practice. Yet, that is the way things goe,
>>>> in
>>>> quite a few cases - even with other equipments. What's more, I some
>>>> years
>>>> ago, asked a colleague, if he knew of anyone who had an unused Optacon
>>>> hanging around. And yes, for sure, he could readily point me to a
>>>> person,
>>>> who simply had stuck away the Optacon in the storage room. Could I
>>>> please
>>>> take it over? Oh, no! How could I ever dream of asking such a question,
>>>> was
>>>> the answer. The unit belonging to the authorities, it could not be
>>>> overtaken
>>>> by any other user. Another user passed away, and I thought now I could
>>>> have
>>>> a chance for getting my hands on a unit, before the trash bin grabbed
>>>> its
>>>> hold of it. Again, the answer was no. Since the Optacon is considered
>>>> obsolete, the authorities refuse to redistribute any. And the users,
>>>> refuses
>>>> to give away the units, worrying they could get in trouble with the
>>>> authorities. Wonder how many units are out there, that simply lingers
>>>> around, without benefitting anyone. It's really a sad story. But I have
>>>> seen
>>>> it over and over again, with all sorts of stuff for the blind.It is a
>>>> great
>>>> thing to have the authorities, or a cherity organization pay your
>>>> equipment,
>>>> as you get your hands on stuff you would hardly ever have been able to
>>>> dream
>>>> of, otherwise. But, unfortunately, it often results in cases like here
>>>> described. And, many times, it keeps the prices up on the new
>>>> equipment.
>>>> That is why, I think it would be great, if we could have a new model -
>>>> fair
>>>> enough priced for even normal people to buy it. If the developing could
>>>> be
>>>> done on an idealistic scale, and the project could have been
>>>> open-sourced,
>>>> we might even be able to see units on the market with prices down to the
>>>> 1000 dollars or so. Still, it would mean a lift for a household budget,
>>>> but
>>>> it would be within the reach for most people. What's more, getting it
>>>> fairly
>>>> priced, would mean that more people would buy, hence the sale would come
>>>> up
>>>> a bit. Too high prices, only restricts the amount of sold units, calling
>>>> for
>>>> even higher prices. One of my biggest worries here is, that there does
>>>> exist
>>>> some kind of patent, that will block even idealistic people from
>>>> building
>>>> their new project on the Optacon design. Without me knowing anything
>>>> about
>>>> the matter, I guess even the whole idea of having a hand-held camera
>>>> that
>>>> transfers stuff to a unit, and this stuff being tactilized on a
>>>> vibrating
>>>> display - well even such a basic idea, can be patented. Depending on how
>>>> hard Telesensory nagged on their patents, we might have to come up with
>>>> real
>>>> new ways of handling the matter. Only good thing is, that even patents,
>>>> might be getting old these days, and at one point they will expire.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Jyrki Voutilainen" <jykke.voutilainen@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 7:52 PM
>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon List Archives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Please forgive me, David and the list, but throwing still working units
>>>>> to
>>>>> the trash bin seems to me as something criminal and unforgivable, but
>>>>> of
>>>>> course that's nobody's fault on this list!
>>>>>
>>>>> After reading this another time I was so upset that I made more typos
>>>>> than
>>>>> usual that I had to correct, but still, nobody on this list kan be
>>>>> blamed,
>>>>> only the authorities!
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 4 Nov 2012, David wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmm, Well. Puts things in a bit of a perspective. Ecconomically, if
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> was 12000 units manufactured, and I bet quite a few of them have
>>>>>> retired,
>>>>>> there might not be more than maybe a thousand left with active users.
>>>>>> Something I really regret, since I have been an active user for 25
>>>>>> years,
>>>>>> these days. And what's more, I have used the Optacon for quite a few
>>>>>> things
>>>>>> more than what it normally would have been used for. It thrills me to
>>>>>> see,
>>>>>> that several other users here, have been using their units for
>>>>>> extended
>>>>>> activities as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Getting hold of "stashed-away" units, might prove a bit of a
>>>>>> challenge.
>>>>>> Specially so, due to the fact that the manufacturing was discontinued
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> 15 years ago. Locally here, it was the authorities that paid for the
>>>>>> Optacon, and all training programs. That meant, that whenever you no
>>>>>> longer
>>>>>> did need your Optacon, or did not want it anymore, you had to return
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the authorities. And what did they do with the units returned? Last
>>>>>> time
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> called them (about 10 years ago), they told me that they simply
>>>>>> through
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> units in the trassh bin. My question was why, and they told me, they
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> no
>>>>>> program for refurbishing the units, did not want to send them out of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> country for repairs, and had no money set aside for the purpose.
>>>>>> Legally,
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> am not even allowed to send my unit out of the country for repair,
>>>>>> although
>>>>>> I doubt they even will have it filed any longer, due to them reckon
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Optacon as an obsolete assisting technology. Well, I won't be speaking
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> all other countries, but I know of a couple of places where similar
>>>>>> situations will have to be dealt with. In fact, even if I did not want
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> Optacon any longer, I am legally not permitted to sell or give it
>>>>>> away,
>>>>>> even
>>>>>> to other users locally, that could have benefitted. I am, by the power
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the local laws, obliged to return it to the authorities - only to see
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> drop it in the trash bin. Well, that is the hard side of the story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, for the dreamy side of the world, it is quite interesting that
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> discussion came up right now. Only a couple of days ago, it crossed my
>>>>>> mind,
>>>>>> why we haven't seen more activity lately, when comes to re-invent the
>>>>>> Optacon. For one thing, there is the matter of time. Many of the old
>>>>>> users
>>>>>> who firstly embraced the technologic break-through of the Optacon -
>>>>>> way
>>>>>> back
>>>>>> in the early 70's - will not be among us any longer. And even if they
>>>>>> are,
>>>>>> they will be quite grown-up people by now, meaning that they hardly
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> too active users any longer. Forgive me, list members, if anyone of
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> fall
>>>>>> into this category, and feel that I am a bit off-tracked here. But I
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> know a few cases personally, where this is the case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The fact of main-stream products becoming quite cheap and accessible,
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> another factor that plays its role in here. Many a user of the Optacon
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the 70's and 80's, never got anything further but to read their phone
>>>>>> bills,
>>>>>> a letter or two every month, and maybe a few recipes. All of this,
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> quickly, effortlessly and easily do by means of their computer and
>>>>>> scanner,
>>>>>> these days. I doubt we will have an easy task in convincing them, that
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> need to do the interpretation themselves, and even do their reading
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> "yet another unit".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, then there is the change in the flow of information. I do hold,
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> today there is a fair amount of information, for which we did use our
>>>>>> Optacons back in the 80's - but for which we hardly would bother
>>>>>> bringing
>>>>>> out the unit today. How many of you, do actually sit down and read
>>>>>> fliers
>>>>>> and newspaper advertisments with the Optacon, since most of it will be
>>>>>> available on your computer, directly from the net. Or, what about the
>>>>>> phone
>>>>>> directory, that we used to get from the phone company, every once a
>>>>>> year.
>>>>>> Over here, they haven't even bothered to distribute it, the last few
>>>>>> years.
>>>>>> Why? sSimply because it is all there, right on the net. And honestly,
>>>>>> why
>>>>>> would I use half an hour on fooling around with small print in the
>>>>>> phone
>>>>>> directory, when I can get my friends three phone numbers from the net,
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> thirty seconds?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, to convince the authorities to even consider paying for any new
>>>>>> Optacon-like technology, I would have to come up with pretty good
>>>>>> arguments.
>>>>>> And, even in places where the authorities do not pay, my guess is,
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> often would have been cherity organizations, who paid for the Optacon.
>>>>>> And
>>>>>> they likely, will demand a certain kind of reasons, again to start
>>>>>> giving
>>>>>> out units.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I saying all of this to discourage further development? Absolutely
>>>>>> NO!
>>>>>> All I want to point out, is that likely there will be quite a few
>>>>>> challenges
>>>>>> in getting these units paid for. This fact, added on to the fact of
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> few
>>>>>> users, will call for any new technology to be reasonably priced.
>>>>>> Taking
>>>>>> into
>>>>>> consideration, the low prices on electronic equipment these days -
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> can get an MP3-player for something under ten US dollars on places
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> EBay, there might just exist a reasonable chance for an affordable
>>>>>> price
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> a new Optacon-model. Reality, though, has taught me a fairly different
>>>>>> story. Even the more recent attempts to come up with hand-held - or
>>>>>> stand-alone - readers for the blind, have dearly failed in being
>>>>>> offered
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> affordable prices. A few years ago, I read about a hand-held
>>>>>> equipment,
>>>>>> which supposedly is not much bigger than a computer mouse, and which
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> be used for reading of plain text. It is called TopBraille. I got
>>>>>> inthusiastic about the idea, and contacted the local dealer. They were
>>>>>> quite
>>>>>> helpful, in informing me that the price was - ONLY 3000 US Dollars.
>>>>>> Sorry,
>>>>>> guys, but forget about asking this - out of a plain normal household
>>>>>> budget.
>>>>>> And, definitely so, since it was an "interpretting unit", meaning that
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> held a piece of OCR built-in. This way, it cannot be used for
>>>>>> diagrams,
>>>>>> drawings, shape recognition - and all the other fun we have with our
>>>>>> dear
>>>>>> Optacon units. Yet another "helpful" piece of technology for assisting
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> people in their reading activity, was recently introduced on the
>>>>>> market.
>>>>>> At
>>>>>> the moment, I don't recall its exact name, but wonder if it was
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> like EasyReader. Again, the blind community was asking the price, and
>>>>>> ended
>>>>>> up shocked - when learning it to cost something like 2500 dollars.
>>>>>> And,
>>>>>> again, it was an "interpretting unit".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we want a replacement for the Optacon, I would say, let us at least
>>>>>> demand it to be like the Optacon. With modern technology and
>>>>>> electronics,
>>>>>> maybe even with a new invention for a more quiet operation. But let us
>>>>>> stick
>>>>>> to a none-interpretting piece of equipment - leaving all
>>>>>> interpretation
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the human brain. No electronics or software, will ever be able to
>>>>>> out-range
>>>>>> that master-piece of creation, after all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, we could have wished for the good old Optacon to simply be put
>>>>>> back
>>>>>> into production. After all, it has had 4 decades on proving its
>>>>>> durability.
>>>>>> And its functionality. I wonder, though, if there is certain patents,
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> will block such a dream. Besides, modern technology, might be a good
>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>> Just imagine if your Optacon could be running for 50 hours, on one
>>>>>> charge.
>>>>>> Or, if the vibrating display could please be made less noisy. That
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> even mean, that you can sit in the living room, doing your reading,
>>>>>> without
>>>>>> disturbing the rest of the household, in their TV watching. And, what
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> could be made half the size and weight. I don't think any of this is
>>>>>> unrealistic ideas, long as you make full use of modern technology.
>>>>>> Just
>>>>>> look
>>>>>> at a cell phone, or a computer, developing through the same 4
>>>>>> decades -
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> even less.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The ideas of making the project open-sourced, and maybe even partially
>>>>>> run
>>>>>> it on an idealistic basis - I really embrace. Unfortunately, none of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> attempts seen inside the blind world, has been applying any such
>>>>>> ideas.
>>>>>> As
>>>>>> shown above, we over and over again, are presented with nice products,
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> are way over-priced. What I could have thought of, as a solution here,
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> we could have got some university students interested. Maybe they
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> the invention as a project, being part of their graduation. That way,
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> would have low costs, in developing and testing the model. As with
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> other projects, it is the developing of a product, that is the real
>>>>>> hungry
>>>>>> ecconomic Caterpillar. Looking on all the other more or less useless
>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>> students are trying to develop, this would at least make some real
>>>>>> sense.
>>>>>> Besides, it would bring those students a far way into the thinking
>>>>>> proces
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> making things and technologies accessible. Anyone know a group of
>>>>>> students,
>>>>>> looking for an engineering progject? Just make sure, they are prepared
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> work with test-persons, even overseas. Likely you will need that, so
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> get enough users, and test the equipment in use with as many
>>>>>> activities
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, a few thoughts, more wil have to come later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "cpond" <cpond@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 5:01 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon List Archives
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About twelve thousand optacons were manufactured.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Natalie
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 10:22 AM
>>>>>>> To: optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon List Archives
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As someone pointed out, with the economy the way it is, the
>>>>>>> probability
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> new research and development is pretty limited, but I wonder if
>>>>>>> there's
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> way of finding other Optacons that people have just stashed away and
>>>>>>> forgotten. Does anybody know how many of both versions were
>>>>>>> originally
>>>>>>> produced? Maybe we could find some way of advertising for the ones
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> still exist. I remember I found five that were just hanging around
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> background and were given to me. At least they could be used for
>>>>>>> parts
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> they no longer
>>>>>>> work. The people repairing them for us can certainly find a use for
>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Natalie
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Catherine Thomas" <braille@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> To: "optacon list" <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 10:09 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Optacon List Archives
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The optacon-l list has an archives of all previous posts. Those new
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> the list might enjoy browsing. You will find the answers to many
>>>>>>>> questions, many ideas for uses of the Optacon, and also information
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> research and many other topics. Here is the archive site.
>>>>>>>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> -Catherine Thomas
>>>>>>>> braille@xxxxxxxxx /
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jyrki Voutilainen
>>>>> mailto:jykke.voutilainen@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Kotisivu/Homepage: http://www.jyrkivoutilainen.com/
>>>>> Blogi/Blog: http://blogi.jyrkivoutilainen.com/
>>>>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>>>>
>>>>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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