- Jim, what you don't know is that *I* did say something to that individual. Not in front of people, but in private. It was briefly discussed and we went on. I did not make an issue out of it and demand Paul issue discipline to all SLAGA members. I was just upset that this morning, I wake up and see all this in the newsgroup and I was dragged into it. I don't appreciate racism and sometimes jokes are like that. I dealt with it how I thought it would be best. I am still friends with the person you mention and we go on with life. I think everyone can agree with this. What I can't agree with is the fact that it has come to this.. Mike Tired of Spam?? Here's your solution.. See: http://www.spamarrest.com/affl?4001050 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Bensman" <junkmailno@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: <geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 7:03 PM Subject: [GeoStL] Re: You catch more flies with honey, than vinegar > - > Mike, > > When problems with racism first happened in SLAGA, it was you who stepped > in > and got the situation under control. You gained my utmost respect for > that. > You got the problems fixed and you agreed to personally take > responsibility > to make sure the problems did not reoccur. You set up an email address to > be sent to you for complaints to make sure they were taken care of. I > greatly appreciated that. > > That is why I was so utterly shocked when the person you dealt with the > fist > time told such an utterly vile and hateful joke with you standing next to > him. This joke was 100 times more vile and hateful than the first one > that > caused the first blowup. I do not see how a joke could be more vile and > hateful than that one. > > You wonder why I did not come to you for help with the situation. You > were > there when it happened and you had told me you were personally going to > deal > with any future problem like that. So I hope you can understand why I > felt > a need to explore other options to get the situation addressed. Like I > said > in my previous message, it was Paul not me who told people about the web > site. I was still trying to get the officers to address the situation in > a > responsible manner. Actually, I was thinking about talking to you about > the > situation. > > You say I do not want people to come to MOGA and events. That simply is > not > true. I want events where people do not have to worry about hearing hate > speech. If my goal was to get people to not come to events, I would have > done things like post messages on the MOGA page/forum, talked to IL > Department of Natural Resources, and I know lots of reporters. While I > cannot say everything I have done was the best way to get this resolved, I > can say my goal is to make geocaching a hate-free sport and my guiding > principle on what tactic to take has been to be the least harmful to SLAGA > and geocaching. > > "Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its > vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It > causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, > and > to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true." > Martin Luther King Jr. > > The hate I heard expressed at three straight events, made me decide > something needed to be done to stop it. That is what this is all about. > IMHO, hate unchecked in SLAGA is a threat to SLAGA. > > Jim Bensman > "Nature Bats Last" > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:geocaching- >> bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Griffin >> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 5:50 PM >> To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: [GeoStL] Re: You catch more flies with honey, than vinegar >> >> - >> Really don't blame you but that is exactly what he wants. We had a very >> nice >> lunch today. I guess there was about 25 people there.. The fact that we >> all >> had a good lunch and enjoyed each others company, proves that we all get >> along just fine. Jim started the website and dragged everyone into it. >> Sooner or later it was going to make it here on the list. I was never >> approached by Jim on these recent issues and I think that is what made me >> so >> mad. I wish he would have come to me as a friend. He took the opportunity >> to >> take a situation that happened 2 years ago and act as if I did nothing to >> correct it. He never came to me and asked for my help. I always >> considered >> Jim a friend. We cached together, I shared my campsite with him many >> times. >> I cooked him my favorite Mushroom melts.. I thought we had a friendship >> that >> was valued more than cheap trash talk because he didn't get his way. >> >> I blew up.. For that I apologize.. MOGA is a non political event. We will >> not discuss such things at the event. I, for one, am really hurt that Jim >> included me in this mess when all I have ever done was share my >> friendship.. >> >> Mike >> >> Tired of Spam?? >> Here's your solution.. >> See: http://www.spamarrest.com/affl?4001050 >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "DRM" <drmdcm@xxxxxxxxx> >> To: <geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 3:55 PM >> Subject: [GeoStL] Re: You catch more flies with honey, than vinegar >> >> >> > - >> > I just want to say that I have never been to a SLAGA >> > or MOGO event before and was looking forward to the >> > event this March. I have paid my fee and sent in my >> > waver. I have been collecting JEEP TRAVEL BUGS to >> > bring for however the group distributes the travel >> > bugs at these events. However, after reading the >> > forums today I will not feel comfortable or feel safe >> > bring my son who is eight to this event. I don't know >> > many of the members or their backgrounds to know who >> > may go "Postal". >> > I have never met the two cachers who where offended or >> > know what the "offensive" joke was that was said so as >> > a member of SLAGA how am I liable and now labled >> > "Racist"? >> > >> > --- tklnhl & kyd <sydstyr@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> > >> >> - >> >> _______________________________________- >> >> > (But not to me, with the others in the group who >> >> are >> >> > anxious to have an intelligent discussion.) >> >> > >> >> > Paul Konopacki >> >> Hey now ... >> >> >> >> ++++ >> >> >> >> Tried to read through the "Breaking News" update and >> >> got a bit lost when Bush started spying on the >> >> Quakers. >> >> >> >> It's a shame, because, if presented to the group in >> >> a calm, logical way, I probably would have been on >> >> Jim's "side." >> >> >> >> As it stands, the message is lost in the >> >> presentation/attack. >> >> >> >> This website is the first most of us have even been >> >> made aware of a concern. My guess is that if >> >> presented to the group/list in a calm, >> >> nonconfrontational way (without naming names as >> >> has been done in the past), that another round of >> >> selfcensoring would have taken place. >> >> >> >> SLAGA is still, relatively speaking, a group in its >> >> infancy. We (my family) and I were not there "in >> >> the beginning". But I'll go out on a limb and say I >> >> doubt that those who were there in the beginning >> >> imagined that geocaching and SLAGA would grow as it >> >> has and would result in what it is becoming. >> >> >> >> It is also because those people were willing to go >> >> waaaaaaaaay out on an even larger limb that anyone >> >> in this group has the opportunity to create >> >> websites, or send email to a list against the group. >> >> Without those people there would be no group. There >> >> would be no events in which to hear derogatory >> >> things; no mail lists in which to discuss the >> >> merits of membership dues -- no website to track our >> >> stats (even if we try to say it's NOT about the >> >> numbers). >> >> >> >> As SLAGA continues to grow there will be problems. >> >> One month (and I'm ignoring things that happened >> >> TWO and HALF years ago that everyone admits were >> >> settled) is NOT enough time for a group of busy >> >> people to offer acceptable options. Especially >> >> during this time of year when most have families, >> >> end of year commitments, illness etc. >> >> >> >> As an individual, Paul made a legitimate offer for >> >> you to have your voice heard. No it wasn't exactly >> >> what you wanted but it would have been a start. >> >> Perhaps it would have paved the way for other >> >> feedback opportunities. Perhaps others would have >> >> heard your concern and also privately contacted the >> >> officers with similar concerns. >> >> >> >> Now, I will violate my own rule and make this >> >> personal. >> >> >> >> Jim, IMHO, you missed a great opportunity. Do you >> >> really not recognize that you are a geocaching >> >> "presence" that many wonder about? Your caches and >> >> placements are excellent; logs are interesting and >> >> when it comes to local natural resources your >> >> knowledge appears to be unlimited. Your caches have >> >> taken us places we would never have thought to go. >> >> When we were able to make it to the Christmas party >> >> YOU were the first person my 8 year old daughter >> >> wanted to get a look at (Molly was the first but >> >> she has too many legs). I had to convince her >> >> though that based on my impression, you might not >> >> take it as a compliment if a laughing 8 year old >> >> girl walked up to you and said, "Dude.. we HATE you >> >> .. but I mean that only in the most loving way >> >> possible." Her best times, not only in gecocaching >> >> but in her little outdoor life, have been getting >> >> lost in the woods with her daddy looking for YOUR >> >> caches. Just mention the name Myotis in our house >> >> and there are at first groans a >> >> nd lots of "oh nos" followed by "When do we >> >> go???". You have been making a statement. A >> >> positive one whether you are aware of it or not. >> >> >> >> (end what appears to be a mini lovefest here) >> >> >> >> You have obviously worked hard to protect the >> >> natural resources that you love. Why not do the same >> >> for the SLAGA organization? The clue is that the >> >> tactics that work for the US Government do not >> >> translate well into the interpersonal level. Just >> >> because it is individuals involved does not mean >> >> that things move faster. But it does mean that the >> >> individuals tend to take things personally and react >> >> on a personal level. >> >> >> >> Now, do some of the founding members have different >> >> backgrounds, values and senses of humor than the >> >> nonfounding members? Uh.. I CAN say .. YES to >> >> that. LOL. This is NOT the local boyscouts, >> >> girlscouts, philanthropy or entrepreneur group. Not >> >> the Army, the Knights of Columbus or the local >> >> coven. There are no pledges to be signed and >> >> memorized. No secret handshakes. (That *I* am aware >> >> of .. hmmmm ... ) No higher, altruistic goals >> >> except for CITO. Just people looking for a reason to >> >> head into the woods with latest technology. And >> >> they happened to be able to use the Internet to find >> >> SLAGA. And now this.. >> >> >> >> As it is, the issue is no longer a concern about >> >> individual behavior in a group, geo setting, but >> >> has become about one person and his past >> >> activities/current presentation and one or two >> >> "official" SLAGA members reaction. >> >> >> >> And then somehow the Quakers got involved and I'm >> >> not even sure they use a GPS. >> >> >> >> Also goes to show what must go on behind the scenes >> >> that we know nothing about. >> >> >> >> It's my understanding that the officers get their >> >> pay in cookies. They'd better be really really big >> >> ones. >> >> >> >> Nancy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> **************************************** >> >> Our WebPage! Http://WWW.GeoStL.com >> >> For List Info or To make _ANY_ changes, including >> >> unsubscribing from this >> >> list, click -----> >> >> //www.freelists.org/list/geocaching >> >> Missouri Caches Scheduled to be Archived >> >> http://tinyurl.com/87cqw >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > __________________________________________ >> > Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about. >> > Just $16.99/mo. or less. >> > dsl.yahoo.com >> > >> > >> > >> > **************************************** >> > Our WebPage! Http://WWW.GeoStL.com >> > For List Info or To make _ANY_ changes, including unsubscribing from >> this >> > list, click -----> //www.freelists.org/list/geocaching >> > Missouri Caches Scheduled to be Archived http://tinyurl.com/87cqw >> > >> >> >> >> **************************************** >> Our WebPage! Http://WWW.GeoStL.com >> For List Info or To make _ANY_ changes, including unsubscribing from >> this >> list, click -----> //www.freelists.org/list/geocaching >> Missouri Caches Scheduled to be Archived http://tinyurl.com/87cqw > > > > **************************************** > Our WebPage! Http://WWW.GeoStL.com > For List Info or To make _ANY_ changes, including unsubscribing from this > list, click -----> //www.freelists.org/list/geocaching > Missouri Caches Scheduled to be Archived http://tinyurl.com/87cqw > **************************************** Our WebPage! Http://WWW.GeoStL.com For List Info or To make _ANY_ changes, including unsubscribing from this list, click -----> //www.freelists.org/list/geocaching Missouri Caches Scheduled to be Archived http://tinyurl.com/87cqw