[optacon-l] Re: My observations: using the left hand to read, versus the right handed: Optacon research and development
- From: "H & C Arnold" <4carolyna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:35:14 -0500
Ollie, I was of the nderstanding that they did make left-hand Optacons, if
ordered.
DOG - Depend on God,
Carolyn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mallard" <mallard@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:08 PM
Subject: [optacon-l] Re: My observations: using the left hand to read,
versus the right handed: Optacon research and development
Hello Eileen,
Wat you say is ery interesting.
I'm certainly right-hand dominant, although I use my left hand a lot,
especially when the need for tactile skills is involved, and because I
seem to have greater strength in my left hand.
On the other hand, I can't carry weights with my left hand/arm, because
I've had a guide dog since I was 15 (I'm 61 now), so I always carried
stuff in my right hand, or in a rucksack on my back.
I always wondered how left'handed people managed to use the first
Optacon models, because the camera and array are on definitely on the
right of the device.
The Optacon II solved this issue, but the resolution is definitely
poorer in my view.
Ciao,
Ollie
Il 14/11/2012 20.20, Eileen Misrahi ha scritto:
> I want to make a very interesting point. I am left-hand dominant and lost
> my
> vision later in life. I am able to read braille with both hands, but
> preferred to read it with my right index finger. I read much faster with
> the
> right then with the left. Are those who can read braille with their left
> finger faster right-hand dominant? It would be interesting to find out.
>
> Eileen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: optacon-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:optacon-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Mallard
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:05 AM
> To: optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: My observations: using the left hand to read,
> versus the right hande: Optacon research and development
>
> That's exactly my experience. Although at scholl they tried hard to make
> me
> read braille with my right finger, or at least with two hands, I've always
> read with my left finger - and still do so.
> That was a great plus when I started learning to read with an Optacon...
> Ciao,
> Ollie
>
>
>
> Il 13/11/2012 19.42, Camille Petrecca ha scritto:
>> When I was about four or five, I began to be fascinatedby any raised
>> print I could get my hands on. Appliances, food containers, even the
>> stamped cookies that had my cousin's initials on them. I always
>> automatically reached and therefore read the print with my left index
>> finger, even though I am right handed. Later, at Oak Hill, we were
>> taught to read Braille with two hands. I thought it was interesting
>> that I always reached for the raised pring with my left hand.--Camille
>> from Connecticut
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve" <k8sp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 1:27 PM
>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon research and development
>>
>>
>> I rather doubt that it has anything to do with nerve paths. I suspect
>> it is more that a mahjority of folks are right-handed, so the unit was
>> designed for people to maneuver the camera with the right hand because
>> of the criticalities involved with proper alignment and angularity for
>> reproducing the image in the display.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Natalie" <nataliej@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 5:57 PM
>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon research and development
>>
>>
>>> When I got my Optacon training in Boston I was commanded never to
>>> change fingers while learning as it would slow down the learning
>>> process. I read braille with my left forefinger and can, if I really
>>> concentrate, read very slowly with my right. I guess it has
>>> something to do with nerve paths and dominant sides of the brain. If
>>> something happened to my left hand, though, it would be a long
>>> learning process to switch to my right and as for reading with the
>>> Optacon, I'd have to start all over again, I imagine.
>>>
>>> Natalie
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "H & C Arnold" <4carolyna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 5:23 PM
>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon research and development
>>>
>>>
>>>> In terms of the left forefinger, I can use the next finger, but
>>>> trying the right one was a problem, because I'm not at all used to
>>>> maneuvering the camera with my left hand.
>>>>
>>>> DOG - Depend on God,
>>>>
>>>> Carolyn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "David" <elephant@xxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 4:51 PM
>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon research and development
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Funny. I have been speaking to a number of blind people domestically
>>>> and abroad, and for some reason, it seems to me the left forefinger
>>>> is the main finger for many. Not just for Optacon usage, but in
>>>> general when comes to sensitivity. At least, does make some of us
>>>> feel normal. Smile, and grin.
>>>> Still, as I stated, I have enjoyed the ability to use some other
>>>> fingers, temporarily, for same tasks. It does require more time, and
>>>> it does not come without training. That is why, I wonder how
>>>> effecient a display that relies on several fingers will be. To me,
>>>> it seems, there might be lacks in perseption which could lead to
>>>> less accuracy in reading, which in turn would lead to lowered speed.
>>>> Would be interesting to hear some results from the developing team,
>>>> as to what kind of feedback blind people give on the readability on
>>>> their display. Not saying this is impossible, but I wonder if it
>>>> needs a fair amount of sensitivity training. Simply just wonder,
>>>> nothing more at this state.
>>>>
>>>> When comes to the differences between the first and second
>>>> generation Optacon's, I only can say this much. Somehow, I do feel
>>>> TSI cut the legs off their own chair, in putting out the second
>>>> generation. I do see many of the benefits, in smaller size, lighter
>>>> weight, and a somehow more flexible design. But the quality, in the
>>>> displaying resolution, as well as a far more tricky adjustment,
>>>> which either gets too thick, or leaves the display all blank when
>>>> reading somehow thin lines. And even when comes to reading displays
>>>> on electronic equipment, I find the second generation to be rather
>>>> lacking.
>>>>
>>>> '
>>>> This is actually why, I do think it is well worth to make sure, a
>>>> follow-up to the Optacon, should be careful to not fall in the
>>>> well-known pitfalls.
>>>> I
>>>> know, it poses a high demand on the developers, as they will have to
>>>> come up with something better than - or at least equal to - the
>>>> first Optacon, in reading capability. Sure it will be possible, and
>>>> modern technology opens up for a lot of chances here. But you'd
>>>> better step carefully. Smile.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "H & C Arnold" <4carolyna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 6:24 PM
>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon research and development
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> David, you bring up interesting points. First of all, I thought the
>>>>> first Optacons produced the clearest images. I now have twoR1Bs and
>>>>> would not want one of the modular ones. I believe they were
>>>>> developed to provide greater computer reading capacity, but were
>>>>> less clear for hard copy print.
>>>>>
>>>>> I tried reading with my right hand; need to go back for training. I
>>>>> had no problem putting the forefinger in the array and draping my
>>>>> other fingers around the right side of the Optacon - BUT MY LEFT
>>>>> HAND WITH THE CAMERA?!?
>>>>> I
>>>>> got out my church directory and finally made NC for North Carolina
>>>>> in an address, but I had to check with my left hand first. I
>>>>> couldn't believe how different it was. I do have greater
>>>>> sensitivity in my left forefinger than my right, but think if I had
>>>>> to do it, I could get more out of the right.
>>>>>
>>>>> DOG - Depend on God,
>>>>>
>>>>> Carolyn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "David" <elephant@xxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Cc: "Carol Livermore" <livermore@xxxxxxx>; "Luis Fernando
>>>>> Velasquez-Garcia"
>>>>> <lfvelasq@xxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 2:48 AM
>>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon research and development
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> AAH! Now we at least see things moving, out of the writing and
>>>>> chatting, and into some real attempt. Great information. Yet, it
>>>>> immediately raises a few questions in my mind, and more are likely
>>>>> to come. If you want to contact me off-list, you are welcome to do
>>>>> so, for further in-depth discussions.
>>>>> Still,
>>>>> let me put my questions on the board, in case that will call for
>>>>> other users' participation.
>>>>>
>>>>> First of all, I want to congratulate you on taking on your
>>>>> shoulders such a tremmendous project. And, I really would have
>>>>> loved to have a chance on getting my hands on your project.
>>>>> Unfortunately I am living in Europe, so let's leave the dreams
>>>>> behind. Smile.
>>>>>
>>>>> >From what I get, and please correct me in case I misunderstood
>>>>>> certain
>>>>>> parts
>>>>> of your descriptions, the unit you are developing will be a product
>>>>> that kind of tries to sum up several user preferences. You are
>>>>> trying to make a product - or have already done so - that both can
>>>>> be run in a strict "give me the tactiles" mode, and an interpretted
>>>>> mode, where things get transfered into ordinary Braille. At top of
>>>>> that, it seems you are trying to make it recognize shapes on a
>>>>> distance, like people moving, their face lines and so forth. I
>>>>> follow all your ideas, and each on its own, is a great one.
>>>>> Yet,
>>>>> I
>>>>> am a little uncertain, as to whether I want one and same unit
>>>>> perform my book reading, and help me recognize my friend's grandmother
> by her face.
>>>>> My
>>>>> big fear of it, is that you will have to make too many compromises.
>>>>> For a face recognition, you need a bigger display, but with not all
>>>>> that high resolution. For a printed page, or even to be able to
>>>>> recognize shapes and drawings (like in a diagram for how to put
>>>>> together your new bookshelf), the things get turned the other way
>>>>> around. We now will need a higher resolution, but will maybe be
>>>>> better offf with a smaller physical area of displaying. One thing
>>>>> is to recognize printed letters, as the main shape might be well
>>>>> enough. But what about following rather thin, and sometimes broken
>>>>> lines, on a diagram or a form. Recently, we had a discussion on
>>>>> this list, as to how to find the signature line on a form. With
>>>>> only one "pixel"
>>>>> or tactile representation for each millimeter, I have a slight
>>>>> feeling such detection could be rather hard. OK, a lot might be
>>>>> accomplished by adjusting the contrast, intensity or whatever other
>>>>> adjustments your product offers.
>>>>> Yet, one of the big advantages of the Optacon's small-sized,
>>>>> high-resolution display, is that it is fairly easy to detect even
>>>>> minor details on a page.
>>>>> At least, to a certain degree. And this is where I see your first
>>>>> compromise. How detailed a picture do we need to tactilize? Some
>>>>> more specifics on the matter, would have helped me in giving
>>>>> further feedback on this point.
>>>>>
>>>>> The second thing, on which your mail was rather vague, is: Exactly
>>>>> how big is the displaying array of your unit? You do state, that I
>>>>> will need to use more than one finger, to cover the whole display.
>>>>> In what way? Do my two, three or four fingers - all rest staticly
>>>>> on the display? Or, do I have to constantly move my fingers over
>>>>> something like a square or rectangular displaying area? My
>>>>> immediate thought is, that if I have to move the camera with one
>>>>> hand, and perform another kind of movement with my other and - so
>>>>> as to cover the displaying array - I know at least my capabilities
>>>>> when comes to coordination well enough, that this would not work
>>>>> very smoothly.
>>>>> And if I have a somehow limited resolution, and have to "go
>>>>> hunting" for a smaller detail on a too big display, I don't really
>>>>> know how effectively I could be operating. So, could you please be
>>>>> a bit more specific to the exact shape and operation of the
>>>>> displaying area.
>>>>>
>>>>> Still hanging on to the display, I have one more question. Whether
>>>>> we like to face it or not, we do ever so often run into unforeseen
>>>>> happenings.
>>>>> All
>>>>> the certain, I am cutting some food in my kitchen, and get a cut in
>>>>> my index finger (which is the one I use for my Optacon). On goes
>>>>> the bandage, and away goes my sensitivity for a couple of days;
>>>>> when comes to operating the Optacon. That is, specially with the
>>>>> second generation of the Optacon, you can always use one of your
>>>>> other fingers on the display. Even when reading bigger amounts of
>>>>> text, my index finger gets weary from all the reading, and I would
>>>>> quickly move my next finger onto the display, giving my index
>>>>> finger a bit of a rest. Now, if I am supposed to use more than one
>>>>> finger on your unit, exactly how vulnerable will I be, when
>>>>> circumstances makes one of my fingers missing? Add on to this, that
>>>>> there is people who has lost certain fingers, or have reduced
>>>>> sensitivity in some fingers. Immediately, I think this way: the
>>>>> more fingers you rely on to get the full picture, the more limited
>>>>> will be the usage. Either on a temporary scale - when you get one
>>>>> of your fingers wrapped up in a bandage; or, on a more permanent
>>>>> basis - like when people loose their sensitivity in a finger or
>>>>> two, in an accident.
>>>>> This
>>>>> might greatly reduce the market's interest for the final product.
>>>>> It is a well-known fact, among Braille readers, that one or two
>>>>> fingers grow the main sensors. For some people, it even will
>>>>> greatly differ from the one hand to the other. To what degree has
>>>>> such factors been taken into consideration in your project? Can the
>>>>> unit, for one thing, be operated with either hand?
>>>>> And, if I move it from my left to my right hand, will this affect
>>>>> the way I get the stuff presented? OK, what did I mean with my last
>>>>> question?
>>>>>
>>>>> If I presume, that your unit requires me to make use of my three
>>>>> first fingers - Index, Middle- and Ring finger - and we imagine I
>>>>> see a certain shape represented under these three fingers, that is
>>>>> well enough. If this is done with my left hand, I can snuggly fit
>>>>> my three fingers onto the display.
>>>>> But if I now move it over to my right hand, the part of the display
>>>>> that formerly was covered by my index finger, will now sit under my
>>>>> ring finger.
>>>>> Is there any ergonomic design on the display that will make my
>>>>> fingers not fit the same snugly onto the displaying area, when
>>>>> moving from one hand to the other? Just put your hands on the
>>>>> table, all flat, and compare them.
>>>>> You
>>>>> will see, they do have a slight difference from one finger to the
> other.
>>>>> If
>>>>> I imagine a set of three of the Optacon's displays put together in
>>>>> a certain set up, I am not sure the same setup would fit equally on
>>>>> both hands.
>>>>> So,
>>>>> without you describing the displaying area of your unit more
>>>>> detailed, I am left wondering how well it goes with user
>>>>> preferences for operation.
>>>>> Again,
>>>>> would be nice with more info on the matter.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the physical size and weight on the unit, and its camera?
>>>>> OK, I do realize, you are on a developing state, but what is the
>>>>> current size? Or the size you aim for? I am not asking general
>>>>> terms here - like "it will be in a portable size". A Laptop, is
>>>>> portable. So is a cell phone. But there is a great difference in
>>>>> HOWE portable they are, and for what activities I would like to
>>>>> have the hazzle of bringing the one or the other. Noone wants to go
>>>>> do their grocery shopping, dragging around with a laptop; but most
>>>>> of us will be fine with our cell phone in our pocket. So what is
>>>>> the estimated size, aimed for battery life, and maybe a word or two
>>>>> on the actual shape of the unit - that you are going for?
>>>>>
>>>>> You mentioned that your unit will be able to read CRTs, if I got
>>>>> you right.
>>>>> I guess, that includes the screen of a laptop. But how about
>>>>> displays on other equipments. For instance, will I be able to
>>>>> successfully read the time off a digital watch? Reading the display
>>>>> of my microwave oven? Or, read the text message in my cell phone
>>>>> display? OK, maybe none of these are all that realistic cases of
>>>>> daily usage, but I actually have been in the need of using my
>>>>> Optacon for things like that, in several situations.
>>>>> Unfortunately,
>>>>> the Optacon does not handle either of these cases very well - at
>>>>> least with the standard lense. So how well does your unit work with
>>>>> displays of different size, shape and technical quality?
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the drawbacks of the Optacon camera, has always been its
>>>>> lack of angling capabilities. If, for instance, I am to explore the
>>>>> buttons on my new stereo system, my new microwave, or my laundry
>>>>> machine - I am often out of luck. The print might be clear enough,
>>>>> but it often sits that close to the buttons or edges of the
>>>>> qppliance, that the camera cannot be move directly across the
>>>>> printed surface. You then are left to move the camera on a few
>>>>> millimeters distance from the surface, and the light conditions get
>>>>> too bad for real recognition. In what way will your camera handle
>>>>> this kind of cases?
>>>>>
>>>>> On the Optacon, you ever so often would have to change the lense.
>>>>> Most users would be familiar with two of them, the standard lense,
>>>>> and the magnified lense. In addition, there was the lense for
>>>>> typewriters, and I believe in the later days, they came around with
>>>>> a lense designed for reading computer screens. Will your unit be in
>>>>> need of frequent camera change, or is your camera well enough
>>>>> equipped, that it will be a matter of user settings, to read under
>>>>> different conditions?
>>>>>
>>>>> As I said in my introduction, there will be more questions. They
>>>>> are all based on extensive experience with the advantages and
>>>>> lackings of both the first and second generation of the Optacon, as
>>>>> well as experience with other reading and "visualizing" equipment
>>>>> for the blind - all through the last
>>>>> 3
>>>>> or 4 decades. If you are interested, be kind to contact me off-list
>>>>> at:
>>>>> trailerdavid@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>
>>>>> Yet, I do hold, the above questions are of such general
>>>>> characteristics, that it would be great to see them answered on the
>>>>> list. Please be aware, I have not put any of those questions on the
>>>>> board so as to discourage your efforts, but merely wanted to point
>>>>> out technical and operational pitfalls, that so often are being
>>>>> overlooked when this kind of equipment is being developed. Thanks
>>>>> for your consideration.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Seth Teller" <teller@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Cc: "Carol Livermore" <livermore@xxxxxxx>; "Luis Fernando
>>>>> Velasquez-Garcia"
>>>>> <lfvelasq@xxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 3:07 AM
>>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon research and development
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Optacon users and list members,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This post is prompted by the many messages that have appeared
>>>>>> recently expressing interest in a successor to the Optacon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are researchers at Northeastern University and MIT who are
>>>>>> developing a high-resolution tactile display intended to provide
>>>>>> blind people with a way to gather visual input through their
>>>>>> fingertips. The display, based on MEMS (micro-electromechanical
>>>>>> systems) technology, will have roughly one "tactel" (or tactile
>>>>>> pixel) per millimeter in both horizontal and vertical dimensions,
>>>>>> and will accommodate touch by several fingertips simultaneously
>>>>>> rather than just one. Thus it will have both higher spatial
>>>>>> resolution, and more total area, than the Optacon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like the Optacon, the tactile display will be linked to a camera
>>>>>> or "retina" so as to provide direct sensation of printed material
>>>>>> and CRT displays. However, a significant difference between our
>>>>>> approach and the Optacon is that our device is intended to code
>>>>>> information not only spatially but spatiotemporally, for example
>>>>>> as particular patterns of motion under the fingers. Compared to
>>>>>> the Optacon, the relatively higher resolution of the device we are
>>>>>> designing should enable access by the user to both more kinds of
>>>>>> information, and more dynamic information, than can be conveyed by
>>>>>> an Optacon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One use case would involve coupling the device to sensors
>>>>>> integrated unobtrusively into clothing, to provide real-time
>>>>>> information about the wearer's surroundings, including:
>>>>>> orientation with respect to the compass or landmarks; mobility
>>>>>> hazards such as obstacles and dropoffs; the presence, identities
>>>>>> and motion of any people nearby; the presence and contents of
>>>>>> nearby signage; and other aspects of the environment, to be
>>>>>> determined in consultation with users. (In this way the device
>>>>>> would produce sensations at the fingertips analogous to those on
>>>>>> the tongue described in Nick Dotson's recent posts.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The system would "interpret" raw sensor data to varying degrees as
>>>>>> per the task and the user's preferences. For example, while names
>>>>>> of approaching people might be displayed as Braille, the user
>>>>>> could also elect to receive raw data directly, for example to read
>>>>>> distant signage or to feel the shape of others' faces at a remove.
>>>>>> And of course the system would support an Optacon-like mode in
>>>>>> which the user could move the retina across any document or object
>>>>>> in order to experience a minimally interpreted tactile version of
>>>>>> whatever data the retina was capturing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This effort has been underway since early 2011, and has been
>>>>>> informed by many conversations with blind people at MIT, at The
>>>>>> Carroll Center for the Blind, at the National Braille Press, at
>>>>>> the Bay State Council of the Blind, and elsewhere. We would be
>>>>>> delighted as well to learn your opinions, either on or off this
>>>>>> list, about how such a system might meet your needs or fall short.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prof. Seth Teller <teller@xxxxxxx> Prof. Carol Livermore
>>>>>> <livermore@xxxxxxx> Dr. Luis Fernando Velasquez-Garcia
>>>>>> <lfvelasq@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/11/2012 6:43 PM, Ninette Legates wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi List,
>>>>>>> Could we, as a group, approach engineering
>>>>>>> departments who might be interested in working on a modern
>>>>>>> version of the Optacon?
>>>>>>> Perhaps a
>>>>>>> group of researchers would take the information that has come out
>>>>>>> on this list and produce a prototype. The realm of possibilities
>>>>>>> for such a device is truly exciting.-Ninette LeGates
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>>>>>>
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>> signature database 7688 (20121113) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 7688 (20121113) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>
>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>
>> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>>
>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a
>> message
> to:
>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 7688 (20121113) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
> to view the list archives, go to:
>
> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>
> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>
> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>
> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a message
> to:
>
> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>
> to view the list archives, go to:
>
> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>
> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>
> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>
> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a message
> to:
>
> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 7692 (20121114) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
to view the list archives, go to:
www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without the
quotes) in the message subject.
Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a message
to:
optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without the
quotes) in the message subject.
to view the list archives, go to:
www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without the
quotes) in the message subject.
Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a message to:
optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without the quotes)
in the message subject.
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