[optacon-l] Re: My observations: using the left hand to read, versus the right handed: Optacon research and development
- From: Mallard <mallard@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 22:30:08 +0100
Wow! I wasn't aware of that... Did you have it to order it specifically,
or was it a regularly available product?
Ciao,
Ollie
Il 14/11/2012 22.25, Philip Hall ha scritto:
> Actually, there was a lefthanded model of the Optacon, where the person
> would use their left hand to control the camera, and their right to read
> the array.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: optacon-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:optacon-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Edmonds, Lucy (LARA)
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 4:07 PM
> To: optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: My observations: using the left hand to read,
> versus the right handed: Optacon research and development
>
> Well, I am right hand dominant, and I do most of my Braille reading with my
> right hand. I can read it with my left but mostly I use my left hand fingers
> for going to the next line and catching a few letters or words until my
> right hand is finished with the previous line. Of course, I use my left
> index finger for the Optacon array.
> Lucy Edmonds
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: optacon-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:optacon-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Eileen Misrahi
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:20 PM
> To: optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: My observations: using the left hand to read,
> versus the right handed: Optacon research and development
>
> I want to make a very interesting point. I am left-hand dominant and lost my
> vision later in life. I am able to read braille with both hands, but
> preferred to read it with my right index finger. I read much faster with the
> right then with the left. Are those who can read braille with their left
> finger faster right-hand dominant? It would be interesting to find out.
>
> Eileen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: optacon-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:optacon-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Mallard
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:05 AM
> To: optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: My observations: using the left hand to read,
> versus the right hande: Optacon research and development
>
> That's exactly my experience. Although at scholl they tried hard to make me
> read braille with my right finger, or at least with two hands, I've always
> read with my left finger - and still do so.
> That was a great plus when I started learning to read with an Optacon...
> Ciao,
> Ollie
>
>
>
> Il 13/11/2012 19.42, Camille Petrecca ha scritto:
>> When I was about four or five, I began to be fascinatedby any raised
>> print I could get my hands on. Appliances, food containers, even the
>> stamped cookies that had my cousin's initials on them. I always
>> automatically reached and therefore read the print with my left index
>> finger, even though I am right handed. Later, at Oak Hill, we were
>> taught to read Braille with two hands. I thought it was interesting
>> that I always reached for the raised pring with my left hand.--Camille
>> from Connecticut
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve" <k8sp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 1:27 PM
>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon research and development
>>
>>
>> I rather doubt that it has anything to do with nerve paths. I suspect
>> it is more that a mahjority of folks are right-handed, so the unit was
>> designed for people to maneuver the camera with the right hand because
>> of the criticalities involved with proper alignment and angularity for
>> reproducing the image in the display.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Natalie" <nataliej@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 5:57 PM
>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon research and development
>>
>>
>>> When I got my Optacon training in Boston I was commanded never to
>>> change fingers while learning as it would slow down the learning
>>> process. I read braille with my left forefinger and can, if I really
>>> concentrate, read very slowly with my right. I guess it has
>>> something to do with nerve paths and dominant sides of the brain. If
>>> something happened to my left hand, though, it would be a long
>>> learning process to switch to my right and as for reading with the
>>> Optacon, I'd have to start all over again, I imagine.
>>>
>>> Natalie
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "H & C Arnold" <4carolyna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 5:23 PM
>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon research and development
>>>
>>>
>>>> In terms of the left forefinger, I can use the next finger, but
>>>> trying the right one was a problem, because I'm not at all used to
>>>> maneuvering the camera with my left hand.
>>>>
>>>> DOG - Depend on God,
>>>>
>>>> Carolyn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "David" <elephant@xxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 4:51 PM
>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon research and development
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Funny. I have been speaking to a number of blind people domestically
>>>> and abroad, and for some reason, it seems to me the left forefinger
>>>> is the main finger for many. Not just for Optacon usage, but in
>>>> general when comes to sensitivity. At least, does make some of us
>>>> feel normal. Smile, and grin.
>>>> Still, as I stated, I have enjoyed the ability to use some other
>>>> fingers, temporarily, for same tasks. It does require more time, and
>>>> it does not come without training. That is why, I wonder how
>>>> effecient a display that relies on several fingers will be. To me,
>>>> it seems, there might be lacks in perseption which could lead to
>>>> less accuracy in reading, which in turn would lead to lowered speed.
>>>> Would be interesting to hear some results from the developing team,
>>>> as to what kind of feedback blind people give on the readability on
>>>> their display. Not saying this is impossible, but I wonder if it
>>>> needs a fair amount of sensitivity training. Simply just wonder,
>>>> nothing more at this state.
>>>>
>>>> When comes to the differences between the first and second
>>>> generation Optacon's, I only can say this much. Somehow, I do feel
>>>> TSI cut the legs off their own chair, in putting out the second
>>>> generation. I do see many of the benefits, in smaller size, lighter
>>>> weight, and a somehow more flexible design. But the quality, in the
>>>> displaying resolution, as well as a far more tricky adjustment,
>>>> which either gets too thick, or leaves the display all blank when
>>>> reading somehow thin lines. And even when comes to reading displays
>>>> on electronic equipment, I find the second generation to be rather
>>>> lacking.
>>>>
>>>> '
>>>> This is actually why, I do think it is well worth to make sure, a
>>>> follow-up to the Optacon, should be careful to not fall in the
>>>> well-known pitfalls.
>>>> I
>>>> know, it poses a high demand on the developers, as they will have to
>>>> come up with something better than - or at least equal to - the
>>>> first Optacon, in reading capability. Sure it will be possible, and
>>>> modern technology opens up for a lot of chances here. But you'd
>>>> better step carefully. Smile.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "H & C Arnold" <4carolyna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 6:24 PM
>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon research and development
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> David, you bring up interesting points. First of all, I thought the
>>>>> first Optacons produced the clearest images. I now have twoR1Bs and
>>>>> would not want one of the modular ones. I believe they were
>>>>> developed to provide greater computer reading capacity, but were
>>>>> less clear for hard copy print.
>>>>>
>>>>> I tried reading with my right hand; need to go back for training. I
>>>>> had no problem putting the forefinger in the array and draping my
>>>>> other fingers around the right side of the Optacon - BUT MY LEFT
>>>>> HAND WITH THE CAMERA?!?
>>>>> I
>>>>> got out my church directory and finally made NC for North Carolina
>>>>> in an address, but I had to check with my left hand first. I
>>>>> couldn't believe how different it was. I do have greater
>>>>> sensitivity in my left forefinger than my right, but think if I had
>>>>> to do it, I could get more out of the right.
>>>>>
>>>>> DOG - Depend on God,
>>>>>
>>>>> Carolyn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "David" <elephant@xxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Cc: "Carol Livermore" <livermore@xxxxxxx>; "Luis Fernando
>>>>> Velasquez-Garcia"
>>>>> <lfvelasq@xxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 2:48 AM
>>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon research and development
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> AAH! Now we at least see things moving, out of the writing and
>>>>> chatting, and into some real attempt. Great information. Yet, it
>>>>> immediately raises a few questions in my mind, and more are likely
>>>>> to come. If you want to contact me off-list, you are welcome to do
>>>>> so, for further in-depth discussions.
>>>>> Still,
>>>>> let me put my questions on the board, in case that will call for
>>>>> other users' participation.
>>>>>
>>>>> First of all, I want to congratulate you on taking on your
>>>>> shoulders such a tremmendous project. And, I really would have
>>>>> loved to have a chance on getting my hands on your project.
>>>>> Unfortunately I am living in Europe, so let's leave the dreams
>>>>> behind. Smile.
>>>>>
>>>>> >From what I get, and please correct me in case I misunderstood
>>>>>> certain
>>>>>> parts
>>>>> of your descriptions, the unit you are developing will be a product
>>>>> that kind of tries to sum up several user preferences. You are
>>>>> trying to make a product - or have already done so - that both can
>>>>> be run in a strict "give me the tactiles" mode, and an interpretted
>>>>> mode, where things get transfered into ordinary Braille. At top of
>>>>> that, it seems you are trying to make it recognize shapes on a
>>>>> distance, like people moving, their face lines and so forth. I
>>>>> follow all your ideas, and each on its own, is a great one.
>>>>> Yet,
>>>>> I
>>>>> am a little uncertain, as to whether I want one and same unit
>>>>> perform my book reading, and help me recognize my friend's
>>>>> grandmother
> by her face.
>>>>> My
>>>>> big fear of it, is that you will have to make too many compromises.
>>>>> For a face recognition, you need a bigger display, but with not all
>>>>> that high resolution. For a printed page, or even to be able to
>>>>> recognize shapes and drawings (like in a diagram for how to put
>>>>> together your new bookshelf), the things get turned the other way
>>>>> around. We now will need a higher resolution, but will maybe be
>>>>> better offf with a smaller physical area of displaying. One thing
>>>>> is to recognize printed letters, as the main shape might be well
>>>>> enough. But what about following rather thin, and sometimes broken
>>>>> lines, on a diagram or a form. Recently, we had a discussion on
>>>>> this list, as to how to find the signature line on a form. With
>>>>> only one "pixel"
>>>>> or tactile representation for each millimeter, I have a slight
>>>>> feeling such detection could be rather hard. OK, a lot might be
>>>>> accomplished by adjusting the contrast, intensity or whatever other
>>>>> adjustments your product offers.
>>>>> Yet, one of the big advantages of the Optacon's small-sized,
>>>>> high-resolution display, is that it is fairly easy to detect even
>>>>> minor details on a page.
>>>>> At least, to a certain degree. And this is where I see your first
>>>>> compromise. How detailed a picture do we need to tactilize? Some
>>>>> more specifics on the matter, would have helped me in giving
>>>>> further feedback on this point.
>>>>>
>>>>> The second thing, on which your mail was rather vague, is: Exactly
>>>>> how big is the displaying array of your unit? You do state, that I
>>>>> will need to use more than one finger, to cover the whole display.
>>>>> In what way? Do my two, three or four fingers - all rest staticly
>>>>> on the display? Or, do I have to constantly move my fingers over
>>>>> something like a square or rectangular displaying area? My
>>>>> immediate thought is, that if I have to move the camera with one
>>>>> hand, and perform another kind of movement with my other and - so
>>>>> as to cover the displaying array - I know at least my capabilities
>>>>> when comes to coordination well enough, that this would not work
>>>>> very smoothly.
>>>>> And if I have a somehow limited resolution, and have to "go
>>>>> hunting" for a smaller detail on a too big display, I don't really
>>>>> know how effectively I could be operating. So, could you please be
>>>>> a bit more specific to the exact shape and operation of the
>>>>> displaying area.
>>>>>
>>>>> Still hanging on to the display, I have one more question. Whether
>>>>> we like to face it or not, we do ever so often run into unforeseen
>>>>> happenings.
>>>>> All
>>>>> the certain, I am cutting some food in my kitchen, and get a cut in
>>>>> my index finger (which is the one I use for my Optacon). On goes
>>>>> the bandage, and away goes my sensitivity for a couple of days;
>>>>> when comes to operating the Optacon. That is, specially with the
>>>>> second generation of the Optacon, you can always use one of your
>>>>> other fingers on the display. Even when reading bigger amounts of
>>>>> text, my index finger gets weary from all the reading, and I would
>>>>> quickly move my next finger onto the display, giving my index
>>>>> finger a bit of a rest. Now, if I am supposed to use more than one
>>>>> finger on your unit, exactly how vulnerable will I be, when
>>>>> circumstances makes one of my fingers missing? Add on to this, that
>>>>> there is people who has lost certain fingers, or have reduced
>>>>> sensitivity in some fingers. Immediately, I think this way: the
>>>>> more fingers you rely on to get the full picture, the more limited
>>>>> will be the usage. Either on a temporary scale - when you get one
>>>>> of your fingers wrapped up in a bandage; or, on a more permanent
>>>>> basis - like when people loose their sensitivity in a finger or
>>>>> two, in an accident.
>>>>> This
>>>>> might greatly reduce the market's interest for the final product.
>>>>> It is a well-known fact, among Braille readers, that one or two
>>>>> fingers grow the main sensors. For some people, it even will
>>>>> greatly differ from the one hand to the other. To what degree has
>>>>> such factors been taken into consideration in your project? Can the
>>>>> unit, for one thing, be operated with either hand?
>>>>> And, if I move it from my left to my right hand, will this affect
>>>>> the way I get the stuff presented? OK, what did I mean with my last
>>>>> question?
>>>>>
>>>>> If I presume, that your unit requires me to make use of my three
>>>>> first fingers - Index, Middle- and Ring finger - and we imagine I
>>>>> see a certain shape represented under these three fingers, that is
>>>>> well enough. If this is done with my left hand, I can snuggly fit
>>>>> my three fingers onto the display.
>>>>> But if I now move it over to my right hand, the part of the display
>>>>> that formerly was covered by my index finger, will now sit under my
>>>>> ring finger.
>>>>> Is there any ergonomic design on the display that will make my
>>>>> fingers not fit the same snugly onto the displaying area, when
>>>>> moving from one hand to the other? Just put your hands on the
>>>>> table, all flat, and compare them.
>>>>> You
>>>>> will see, they do have a slight difference from one finger to the
> other.
>>>>> If
>>>>> I imagine a set of three of the Optacon's displays put together in
>>>>> a certain set up, I am not sure the same setup would fit equally on
>>>>> both hands.
>>>>> So,
>>>>> without you describing the displaying area of your unit more
>>>>> detailed, I am left wondering how well it goes with user
>>>>> preferences for operation.
>>>>> Again,
>>>>> would be nice with more info on the matter.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the physical size and weight on the unit, and its camera?
>>>>> OK, I do realize, you are on a developing state, but what is the
>>>>> current size? Or the size you aim for? I am not asking general
>>>>> terms here - like "it will be in a portable size". A Laptop, is
>>>>> portable. So is a cell phone. But there is a great difference in
>>>>> HOWE portable they are, and for what activities I would like to
>>>>> have the hazzle of bringing the one or the other. Noone wants to go
>>>>> do their grocery shopping, dragging around with a laptop; but most
>>>>> of us will be fine with our cell phone in our pocket. So what is
>>>>> the estimated size, aimed for battery life, and maybe a word or two
>>>>> on the actual shape of the unit - that you are going for?
>>>>>
>>>>> You mentioned that your unit will be able to read CRTs, if I got
>>>>> you right.
>>>>> I guess, that includes the screen of a laptop. But how about
>>>>> displays on other equipments. For instance, will I be able to
>>>>> successfully read the time off a digital watch? Reading the display
>>>>> of my microwave oven? Or, read the text message in my cell phone
>>>>> display? OK, maybe none of these are all that realistic cases of
>>>>> daily usage, but I actually have been in the need of using my
>>>>> Optacon for things like that, in several situations.
>>>>> Unfortunately,
>>>>> the Optacon does not handle either of these cases very well - at
>>>>> least with the standard lense. So how well does your unit work with
>>>>> displays of different size, shape and technical quality?
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the drawbacks of the Optacon camera, has always been its
>>>>> lack of angling capabilities. If, for instance, I am to explore the
>>>>> buttons on my new stereo system, my new microwave, or my laundry
>>>>> machine - I am often out of luck. The print might be clear enough,
>>>>> but it often sits that close to the buttons or edges of the
>>>>> qppliance, that the camera cannot be move directly across the
>>>>> printed surface. You then are left to move the camera on a few
>>>>> millimeters distance from the surface, and the light conditions get
>>>>> too bad for real recognition. In what way will your camera handle
>>>>> this kind of cases?
>>>>>
>>>>> On the Optacon, you ever so often would have to change the lense.
>>>>> Most users would be familiar with two of them, the standard lense,
>>>>> and the magnified lense. In addition, there was the lense for
>>>>> typewriters, and I believe in the later days, they came around with
>>>>> a lense designed for reading computer screens. Will your unit be in
>>>>> need of frequent camera change, or is your camera well enough
>>>>> equipped, that it will be a matter of user settings, to read under
>>>>> different conditions?
>>>>>
>>>>> As I said in my introduction, there will be more questions. They
>>>>> are all based on extensive experience with the advantages and
>>>>> lackings of both the first and second generation of the Optacon, as
>>>>> well as experience with other reading and "visualizing" equipment
>>>>> for the blind - all through the last
>>>>> 3
>>>>> or 4 decades. If you are interested, be kind to contact me off-list at:
>>>>> trailerdavid@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>
>>>>> Yet, I do hold, the above questions are of such general
>>>>> characteristics, that it would be great to see them answered on the
>>>>> list. Please be aware, I have not put any of those questions on the
>>>>> board so as to discourage your efforts, but merely wanted to point
>>>>> out technical and operational pitfalls, that so often are being
>>>>> overlooked when this kind of equipment is being developed. Thanks
>>>>> for your consideration.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Seth Teller" <teller@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Cc: "Carol Livermore" <livermore@xxxxxxx>; "Luis Fernando
>>>>> Velasquez-Garcia"
>>>>> <lfvelasq@xxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 3:07 AM
>>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: Optacon research and development
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Optacon users and list members,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This post is prompted by the many messages that have appeared
>>>>>> recently expressing interest in a successor to the Optacon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are researchers at Northeastern University and MIT who are
>>>>>> developing a high-resolution tactile display intended to provide
>>>>>> blind people with a way to gather visual input through their
>>>>>> fingertips. The display, based on MEMS (micro-electromechanical
>>>>>> systems) technology, will have roughly one "tactel" (or tactile
>>>>>> pixel) per millimeter in both horizontal and vertical dimensions,
>>>>>> and will accommodate touch by several fingertips simultaneously
>>>>>> rather than just one. Thus it will have both higher spatial
>>>>>> resolution, and more total area, than the Optacon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like the Optacon, the tactile display will be linked to a camera
>>>>>> or "retina" so as to provide direct sensation of printed material
>>>>>> and CRT displays. However, a significant difference between our
>>>>>> approach and the Optacon is that our device is intended to code
>>>>>> information not only spatially but spatiotemporally, for example
>>>>>> as particular patterns of motion under the fingers. Compared to
>>>>>> the Optacon, the relatively higher resolution of the device we are
>>>>>> designing should enable access by the user to both more kinds of
>>>>>> information, and more dynamic information, than can be conveyed by
>>>>>> an Optacon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One use case would involve coupling the device to sensors
>>>>>> integrated unobtrusively into clothing, to provide real-time
>>>>>> information about the wearer's surroundings, including:
>>>>>> orientation with respect to the compass or landmarks; mobility
>>>>>> hazards such as obstacles and dropoffs; the presence, identities
>>>>>> and motion of any people nearby; the presence and contents of
>>>>>> nearby signage; and other aspects of the environment, to be
>>>>>> determined in consultation with users. (In this way the device
>>>>>> would produce sensations at the fingertips analogous to those on
>>>>>> the tongue described in Nick Dotson's recent posts.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The system would "interpret" raw sensor data to varying degrees as
>>>>>> per the task and the user's preferences. For example, while names
>>>>>> of approaching people might be displayed as Braille, the user
>>>>>> could also elect to receive raw data directly, for example to read
>>>>>> distant signage or to feel the shape of others' faces at a remove.
>>>>>> And of course the system would support an Optacon-like mode in
>>>>>> which the user could move the retina across any document or object
>>>>>> in order to experience a minimally interpreted tactile version of
>>>>>> whatever data the retina was capturing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This effort has been underway since early 2011, and has been
>>>>>> informed by many conversations with blind people at MIT, at The
>>>>>> Carroll Center for the Blind, at the National Braille Press, at
>>>>>> the Bay State Council of the Blind, and elsewhere. We would be
>>>>>> delighted as well to learn your opinions, either on or off this
>>>>>> list, about how such a system might meet your needs or fall short.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prof. Seth Teller <teller@xxxxxxx> Prof. Carol Livermore
>>>>>> <livermore@xxxxxxx> Dr. Luis Fernando Velasquez-Garcia
>>>>>> <lfvelasq@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/11/2012 6:43 PM, Ninette Legates wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi List,
>>>>>>> Could we, as a group, approach engineering
>>>>>>> departments who might be interested in working on a modern
>>>>>>> version of the Optacon?
>>>>>>> Perhaps a
>>>>>>> group of researchers would take the information that has come out
>>>>>>> on this list and produce a prototype. The realm of possibilities
>>>>>>> for such a device is truly exciting.-Ninette LeGates
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe"
>>>>>>> (without the
>>>>>>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending
>>>>>>> a message to:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe"
>>>>>>> (without the
>>>>>>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe"
>>>>>> (without the
>>>>>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a
>>>>>> message
>>>>>> to:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>>>>>
>>>>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>>>>
>>>>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>>>>
>>>>> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>>>>>
>>>>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe"
>>>>> (without the
>>>>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a
>>>>> message
>>>>> to:
>>>>>
>>>>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without
>>>>> the
>>>>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>>>>
>>>>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>>>>
>>>>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>>>>
>>>>> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>>>>>
>>>>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe"
>>>>> (without the
>>>>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a
>>>>> message
>>>>> to:
>>>>>
>>>>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without
>>>>> the
>>>>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>>>>
>>>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>>>
>>>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>>>
>>>> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>>>>
>>>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without
>>>> the
>>>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>>>
>>>> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a
>>>> message
>>>> to:
>>>>
>>>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without
>>>> the
>>>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>>>
>>>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>>>
>>>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>>>
>>>> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>>>>
>>>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without
>>>> the
>>>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>>>
>>>> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a
>>>> message
>>>> to:
>>>>
>>>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without
>>>> the
>>>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>> signature database 7685 (20121112) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature database 7685 (20121112) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>>
>>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>>>
>>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without
>>> the
>>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>>
>>> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a
>>> message
>>> to:
>>>
>>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without
>>> the
>>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>>
>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>
>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>
>> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>>
>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without
>> the
>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>
>> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a
>> message
>> to:
>>
>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without the
>> quotes) in the message subject.
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 7688 (20121113) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 7688 (20121113) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>
>> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>>
>> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>>
>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without
>> the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a
>> message
> to:
>> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 7688 (20121113) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
> to view the list archives, go to:
>
> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>
> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>
> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>
> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a message
> to:
>
> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>
> to view the list archives, go to:
>
> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>
> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>
> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>
> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a message
> to:
>
> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>
> to view the list archives, go to:
>
> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>
> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>
> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>
> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a message
> to:
>
> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>
> to view the list archives, go to:
>
> www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
>
> To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
>
> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>
> Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a message to:
>
> optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without the
> quotes) in the message subject.
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 7693 (20121114) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
to view the list archives, go to:
www.freelists.org/archives/optacon-l
To unsubscribe at any time, just send a message to:
optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" (without the
quotes) in the message subject.
Tell your friends about the list. They can subscribe by sending a message to:
optacon-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "subscribe" (without the quotes)
in the message subject.
Other related posts:
