[AR] Re: ADN

From: "Anthony Cesaroni" <anthony@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 15:46:09 -0400

If you are referring to crystalline or pearled "neat" ADN, it is far from AP
or AN in terms of "explosive-ness". UN series tests classify it as a
detonable, high explosive. The detonation velocity is in the range of 7,000
m/s so it's right up there with molecules such as RDX, HNS, TATB in terms of
how fast you need to run. Class 3 is no longer used as an energetic shipping
classification. The closest thing to class 3 today would be class 1.3. Class
1.3 means you need a dedicated truck with a specially licensed carrier with
a very expensive fuel surcharge. There are no minimum quantity exemptions
for class 1.3 either. That said, ADN is class 1.1D so you can quadruple the
amount of headaches and cost to move it around in commerce. There may be a
stabilized packaging configuration that will permit shipping it as a lower
class but you will still require an explosive license here in the US to
posses or handle it. In short your prerequisites will be no different than
any other high explosive. Rb comparisons of neat materials below.

ADN is impact and friction sensitive. It's also photo sensitive and
unstable. It also doesn't care too much for even moderate heat, particularly
if it's dry. There is a long list propellant chemicals that it doesn't
behave well with when mixed either. If mixed with the appropriate chemicals
and water ( a common chemical) it can be made to behave as a useful
mono-propellant (LMP-103S) or liquid gun propellant that is similar to HAN
in some respects. These types of configurations can qualify it for 1.4
Another way to ship it is under the DOT SP-8451 pipe bomb exemption as 1.4C.
Just like it sounds, a maximum of 25 grams of HE with a maximum energetic
equivalent of PETN can be shipped in a 3" sched. 80 pipe with forged caps in
a UN approved wooden container that weighs over 70 pounds and only by ground
freight. You have to be party to the exemption BTW.

You will require a license and a real good reason before anyone will sell
you any quantity of ADN. Aside from the need, you will also be required to
demonstrate competency with the handling and processing of high explosives.
It will be expensive to get it to the licensed magazine that you will have
to log it and store it as well.

This is not something that is a drop in replacement for ammonium
perchlorate. It is a very energetic and tricky molecule to experiment with
in a propellant. Accidents with ADN have resulted in millions of dollars of
property damage over the years since it was first synthesized. As with most
exotic, energetic materials, the problems and challenges of its use far
outweigh its performance potential in solid propellants with the current
state of the art. My initial work introduction to these propellants was in a
program called HEMi (High Energy Missile). The goal being to deploy a
lightweight, high mobility system with the firepower of a modern, large
caliber Howitzer in an armored personnel carrier such as a M1126 Stryker.
Our group's focus was primarily with HNF but we worked in parallel with a
group in the defense department attempting to do much the same thing with
ADN. That's how I got to test its compatibility or lack thereof with HTP. We
were lucky and we made some incredible propellants that didn't make any
smoke or flame and didn't contain any metal. We learned a lot and got at
least one patent. The ADN group were not so lucky and destroyed a facility.
Fortunately, due to good design and safety protocols, no one was injured.

When it was all said and done, we had a smokeless propellant that had a
delivered sea level performance approaching 280 seconds. Problem was, it
wasn't going to be class 1.3 and it wasn't going to sit quietly for years in
storage from -40 to +150 F while not being sympathetic to any kind of
external, energetic stimulus including rough handling. It's hard to do
better than the status quo when it comes to a good balance of properties and
doesn't cost $10K pound. Below is an example of $10K sitting in a one gallon
vacuum mixer. HNF, TMETN, HMX and a few other things, held together with
PolyNMMO and tightly crossed fingers to quote John Clark.



ADN and and a lot of these other exotics are dangerous materials with a lot
of energy. They are far outside the scope of amateur and experimental
rocketry but make for interesting discussion and theory. Traditional AP and
AN based propellants are hazardous enough. My advice is to stay clear of ADN
and similar materials unless you have the proper facilities, equipment and
training and someone is paying you a lot of money.

Anthony J. Cesaroni

President/CEO

Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace

http://www.cesaronitech.com/

(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota

(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

-----Original Message-----
From: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf
Of snyder@xxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2019 1:08 PM
To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Re: ADN

Exactly, Thanks Anthony,

Some people refer to a particular group of "green" monopropellant liquids by
the same name, but I am more curious about the Solid ADN.

1) It is an oxidizer,

2) It appears to be similar in explosive-ness as AP or AN.

3) Is it considered a ATF class 3 - blasting agent ?

   Therefor, do you not even need a LEUP (class 2) let alone

   a HEUP (Class 3)  ?

4) it can be shipped by UPS ground. (I am told)

5) People say the manufacturing process in quite dangerous.

6) It appears that it is about $200 / lb in small quantities.

7) Several papers suggest that in some mixtures, it could add a few  seconds
of ISP over AP.

8) with the recent discussion of mixing and vacuum, I don't have a clue
about density, and therefor ISP Density :)

I guess I am really asking if anyone has any first hand experience with it.
(Anthony being the best bet ?)

Thanks guys,

-Gar.

PS Don't get me started on alcohols, when IPA is obviously........

From: "Anthony Cesaroni" < <mailto:anthony@xxxxxxxxxxx>

anthony@xxxxxxxxxxx>

Subject: [AR] Re: alcohols (was Re: Re: ADN Q?)

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:03:29 -0400

What does this have to do with ADN? I thought the initial question was

in regard to its suitability as an energetic oxidizer in composite

propellant.

As with other exotics such as HNF, a considerable amount of effort was

made in adapting it as a monopropellant with water alcohol and

ammonia. I get that but where did the thread digress in using it for

life support or did I miss something?

Anthony J. Cesaroni

President/CEO

Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace < <http://www.cesaronitech.com/>

http://www.cesaronitech.com/>

<http://www.cesaronitech.com/> http://www.cesaronitech.com/

(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota

(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

[AR] Re: ADN

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